In a panel discussion at a film festival in Poland earlier this week, Academy president John Bailey made it clear that the much-discussed best popular Oscar category, while not happening this year, is certainly not dead.“Even after a stake was driven through its heart,“ he said, “theres still interest.” How much interest there is may depend on the nomination of a single film: Black Panther. According to Variety, Bailey mentioned a potentially wide range of best picture nominees, including Black Panther—the years biggest hit, and a likely draw for more viewers to watch the telecast—and the “uncompromising” black and white drama Roma. “It will be interesting to see how that plays out,” Bailey said. “It might give us a strong perspective on how to move forward.”
Thats far from a promise to Academy voters that, if Black Panther gets a best picture nomination, the best popular Oscar category will no longer seem necessary. But it does reveal just how much pressure is on that film to become Marvels first-ever best picture nominee, and the first film to both top the years box office and receive a best picture nomination since American Sniper. On this weeks Little Gold Men podcast, Mike Hogan, Richard Lawson, and Katey Rich discuss the outlook for Black Panther at this point in the awards race—when lots of newer films are angling for attention, but the superhero movie remains the industrys best hope to prove that best picture and box office hits are not mutually exclusive.
Also on this weeks episode, a look at Willem Dafoes performance as Vincent van Gogh in the Julian Schnabel-directed At Eternitys Gate (read Richards review here); what will happen now that wider audiences are seeing Green Book; and the state of the supporting actor and supporting actress races. Is Mahershala Ali as much of a shoo-in for Green Book as many pundits believe? Is supporting actress all about Regina King and a bunch of also rans? And finally, what happens when Vice opens at last, and Amy Adams and Sam Rockwell potentially change the whole thing?
The episode ends with Mikes interview with Steve McQueen, the director of the much-loved festival hit Widows, which opens wide this weekend. They discuss how McQueen brought modern-day politics into the adaptation of a 1983 British miniseries, what he and his frequent collaborator Michael Fassbender might have coming up in the future, and his memories of the night 12 Years a Slave won best picture—including his mother getting into a dance battle with Madonna.
Listen to the podcast above, and find the transcript of the McQueen interview below. You can also find Little Gold Men on Apple Podcasts, where you can leave a rating and a review.
Vanity Fair: Thank you for joining us today.
Steve McQueen: Oh no, its my pleasure. Absolutely, thank you.
Thrilled to be talking to you about Widows. Its such a fabulous film and Im fascinated by this original miniseries that its based on, which I dont think a lot of Americans are familiar with. Can you tell us a bit about that and why it captured your imagination?
Well, the miniseries was written by Lynda La Plante. It was televised April 1983, and it was just one of those things where I think people werent expecting a show at that time about four women who masterminded a criminal activity, so 35 years later, its still the same. So again, it was just one of those things which sort of grabbed me as 13-year-old, and as I said before, its one of those things where I had an immediate connection to those characters and just to follow them through their escapades was … it just took me, because you were rooting for them from day one, these underdogs. It was one of those times where … I think at that time, we only had four, I think three channels. We only had three channels at that point, ITV, BBC1, BBC2, so the streets would be … people would be running home or jumping on the bus to get home to watch the next episode. It was one of those situations.
It was a big, popular show. It wasnt an obscure thing.
It beat Coronation Street, which is our biggest soap opera and the biggest rated show at the time. It took over in the ratings.
It beat Coronation Street. Even I know that thats a big deal. Thats kind of amazing.
Its kind of funny how these things sort of come and go so quickly. A lot of people dont remember it but it just stuck with me. I remember.
Did you always know that you wanted to make a film about it or did it come to you more recently?
No, no, no, I knew. I knew. I wasnt 13 years old with a cigar in my mouth thinking, I should make a movie about this, but it just stayed with me. A lot of shows come and go. Of course, this wasnt necessarily stuck in other peoples psyche but it stayed in mine. Somehow it showed me a lot about me without it being about me.
What about taking it to Chicago? What drew you to Chicago as a setting for it?
I lived in Chicago for 22 years. I was in Chicago with my girlfriend, now wife, and I was doing a show at the Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago. That actually was my first solo exhibition show and my wife was going to the Democratic Convention, which was Bill Clintons convention, in 1996 in Chicago. So the funny thing is, my first footprint in Chicago was all about art and politics from day one. Widows of 83 is very different to Widows of 2018. These womens husbands die and they take up the reins to do the job. That was it. Everything else, all the politics, all the political stuff, is not in the current Widows, and the reason being because I wanted to place that narrative into a heightened contemporary city, and that for me was Chicago. It had all of the subjects that I wanted to cover: race, economics, the physical, policing, even religion, whatever that is, and more. Obviously theres way more. Gender, obviously, and all of that, etc., etc., etc.
Did you ever have the question, ”How the hell am I gonna pack all that into a heist movie?” Or were you confident from the beginning?
Theres so many things going on but at the same time, its all … theyre all linked. Theyre all connected. All these things crisscross and are intertwined, and its how people even speak to people. Again, its the face, the whole idea of face and politics and corruption is kind of … its all intertwined. What I love about Chicago is their catchphrase is, ”I got a guy.” Even before Al Capone and all of that and the prohibition and so forth, its always been about you scratch my back, I scratch yours.
Well, Colin Farrell really represents that, right? Youve talked about this amazing scene where Colin Farrells in the back of the car and theres so much going on there. Its a single take as he travels from a poor neighborhood to a rich neighborhood. Hes got a black driver who he doesnt realize is listening to him say a bunch of stupid crap, or he realizes it and doesnt care. Is that right?
Wheres the driver … wheres he gonna go. For me, as a British filmmaker, I try to stretch a pound, or now, stretch a dollar. Whats the most economical way to do a scene at the same time as maybe tell three or four things at the same time? The audiences are so sophisticated. We can follow things in that way. In fact, we like it, because we feel more stimulated. Were kept on our toes and therefore, if were engaged, thats when youve got the audience and they trust the filmmaker. They feel that, “Okay, Im in safe hands and I will follow him or her.” The thing about it also is the shot is not about just looking at the shot. Its actually telling you something more than actually whats just going on, but thats when it becomes something which is effective and practical.
Youve got such a great cast in this film. How do you approach casting? Do you have a process? Do you do the same thing for everybody? Do you have a different approach for different kinds of roles? Obviously a lead is going to be different from a supporting.
Yeah, well, I have a great casting director Francine Maisler. Elizabeth Debicki, I didnt really … I met her at some red carpet event which I didnt want to be at but I was there and I was introduced to her by someone. I didnt think anything of it and then someone told me that she was in a Jean Genet play called The Maids and I really love Jean Genet, so I thought, ”Hmm,” and I heard she was fantastic so I said ”Okay, let me audition her.” So that was great. Michelle Rodriguez, I just, I liked very much. And of course, there was the Girlfight movie that was very, very early on, 16 years ago. I wanted her and then she said no and then she said … you know the story about that. Viola was a situation where I talked to a couple of other people about the role and I talked to Viola and that was it. I said, “Okay, yes. Thats the lady.” So just having conversations with people in general.
Viola has been talking a lot about that opening scene as kind of like a revolutionary act. Is that how you approached it, that an interracial, very sensual kiss, no makeup, no hair done in any kind of unnatural ways … did you guys talk about that?
No. Not at all. Two people in love. Its just like, come on guys. I think they enjoyed it. They enjoyed to work together very much and then I think what for me is exciting very much is two middle aged people who are passionately in love. You hardly ever get to see that. Were so fixated on youth, one does forget that actually, there are other people that have a sexual appetite.
Youve launched the careers of several actors. Lupita Nyongo obviously launched in a humongous way out of 12 Years a Slave from someone that people hadnt heard of to someone who won the Oscar. Do you think about that? “Im gonna launch somebody”? I mean, Cynthia Erivo in this film, Bryan Tyree Henry, you see a whole new side of him. Is that something you think about and feel responsibility for?
No. For example, the fact of the matter is that you give people the opportunity. I love giving people a chance. For me, thats part of me wanting to … I dont know, its just I have the opportunity of giving someone a chance and they have to take it. Why not? I think its very important. Youve got nothing to lose.
Do you think youll go back and work with Fassbender again? Are you guys cooking anything up?
Yeah, absolutely. I think that will happen, of course. I very much hope so. Yeah.
What do you remember about the night that you won the Oscar for 12 Years a Slave? Whats your big memory of that night?
To see my mother so happy and my sister happy. Again, these things are about sharing, I think, and I think seeing my mother bursting into tears and then being at this party, my mother dancing, battling Madonna on the dance floor and my sister, her dress being trod on by [Leonardo DiCaprio] … and my mother, I mean, shes like 70, 71, and she danced all night, which is wonderful. Those are the things that I remember that you can share this stuff with other people. Its wonderful. That was great. That was fantastic, my mother battling Madonna on the dance floor.
Thats incredible. How does the film world compare to the art world? Is one easier to navigate than the other? Is one more fun than the other?
The art world, whats so interesting … art is fantastic and whatever, but sometimes you feel its being hijacked by rich people. Its unfortunate. I just feel sometimes that commodities get so much entangled into the process of the avant garde. I mean, paintings. Do you really think that Picasso would be painting today with the technology thats at hand? No. What happens is when art becomes a commodity, its that mobility, a sculpture, a painting. This is not to say that those forms are redundant. Im not saying that. But at the same time, theres a hell of a lot more painting going on. You know what I mean? I just feel that somehow the wealthy somehow has, well, hijacked the arts in some ways. Artists arent meant to experiment, artists are meant to explore, and they do, and Im not saying that they dont. But this market is somehow sort of … somehow reduces the meaning of the work. It becomes about something completely other, and that sort of … Im not happy. I dont like it. The environment … the actual environment is not for me.
You have an art piece coming up. Did I read this correctly? Youre doing a big project with kids in London. Is that right?
Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Were working with all 7-year-old children in London.
Thats amazing. Thats a huge project.
Yes, its massive. Its monumental but were doing our best to get through it, yeah.
Well, I think thats a nice way to tie this up. Youve got a fabulous populist film thats also a great work of art that millions of people can enjoy and youre gonna photograph every kid in London.
And its not for sale, so again, its one of those things where for me this is the thing, where its the public that makes the decision if they want to see it, the broader, wider public. So its not some billionaire whos … again, its just the whole idea of … I know, I cant get into it, but its the world we live in and I accept it, but I dont have to like it.
Right. I agree. I think youre making a great point. I think your assessment is right.
Well, its similar to Widows, in a way. I have to live in it but I dont have to like it. These four women wading their way through the cesspool which we all live in, and how do we navigate ourselves through it in one way, shape, or form or the other? Because thats how it is.
Thank you very much, Steve. Appreciate it.
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